All this to say, I am so very glad you survived! Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. Her boyfriend is still hospitalized with injuries that will cause him lifelong disabilities. Im sorry that Im unable to divulge further, but based on what I know, I say he should be put out, period. Im pretty sure this is the first time Ive ever posted on this blog. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. I would be interested in writing a post about. The obituary was featured in Orlando Sentinel on December 15, 2017. And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. It is insane that these false teachers have any followers too. With regard to RC2, along with his alcoholism, and the alleged wife spanking which I posted about several years ago, there are numerous reports of spiritual abuse, failure to submit to authority, church discipline, etc. One theme Im getting from your numerous replies, and in spite of your protests to the contrary, is that a persons alcoholism should out-weight all else, and excuse that person. "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" Well,this is one way. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] Another time I may share a miracle that happened in my family members life. I had to figure it out myself later in life. No one has said we shouldnt try. Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Hi Dee and Deb, just a couple of things you might want to correct in this part of your post: >> Heart breaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. The former statement had stronger language. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. But to say that is what is causing him to stumble? This often does not happen because money is not available. We met many times at a local restaurant after car shows. We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. This was reckless endangerment. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. No. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. On My Shelf The Gospel Coalition and Hubworthy Join Forces to Sell, Sell, Sell Books, This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. However, he does now have a permanent criminal record, and a felony record, no less. I hadnt thought of it in just that way; I just knew it was um foolishness. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Theres still no excuse to be an abuser of others. RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. I can choose not to and on very rare occasions (maybe twice in five years) Ive forgotten to. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. I hope it is true. Look at the fruit. The only thing that's likely to prevent it is more public exposure. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. 0.175. I lost all of my friends of 8 1/2 years and people were ordered to never speak to be againand none of it was true. It is a complex topic and there are no easy answers, as weve seen on this thread. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. RC sr. would have pontificated from on high with that authoritative voice the nonsense he often says, like he does with science, which he knows next to nothing about. It is ASTOUNDING to me that Christians make excuses for a TWICE DEFROCKED PASTOR. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. He was 78. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. Thats awful. Many of us have suffered tragedies. Whoa, what? R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I was never banned from her blog- you may have misunderstood my post on that at my blog. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] Start owning up to what you do. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Making the excuses in advance; yes. For several decades the 12 step model/solution has been the dominant one in US treatment facilities. @ Velour: I do know that most Christian people do believe that Christ died for them out of love for them, not to satisfy a wrathful entity who despises them. It beat opioids for me. Gods Word says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin (Rom. He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. Sadly those poor folks he advised not to take their medicines were far more intelligent and realistic than Sproul Jr. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. You dont. Having had much shade thrown our way in the early 80s because our oldest son was into alcohol and drugs, we decided to start a support group called Parents Concerned This was in Silicon Valley. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. 2. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Thats way more disclosure than Im even comfortable making right now. As long as he stays de-frocked and out of his victims' lives. In fact the long term success stories are the exception, and according to CR headquarters what we experienced at our church is the statistical norm. However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? Sproul, an influential Christian theologian from Sanford who spread his evangelical teachings to millions of followers around the world through books, tapes, radio broadcasts and podcasts,. Your opinions are important and need to be validated. But they also need bona fide help from people who know how to deliver it and are trained in it. The objective and end goal must always be repentance unto restoration. That of course is subjective and christian people will disagree on what is help and what is enabling. So Ill start to believe that RC is repentant when he contacts me personally to confess and repent of all the damage he caused me and my family. We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. Many of us have suffered tragedies. And one thing an alky can sniff out in a heartbeat is an ignorant person trying to give them advice. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? People go at their own pace. It is shocking, and saddening to me, that in this day and age, with all that is known about how to help people with addictions, people in the church advocate kicking Christians with addictions out of church as a matter of policy. Welcome to TWW! As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? I raised a kid that a sibling could not care for, and never, not one time, ever not once was I not there, my nephews words, not mine. Too. My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. This is probably the best option for all involved. I personally think I was a piece of crap uncle but thats me. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! I lost a number of friends in high school who didnt. I daresay that people would have learned less about alcoholism, too. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. There was no condemnation of her drinking, just sadness and even more love, and powerful lessons about the price of alcoholism. Serous help? Friends and. Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. Go back and re-read what I said. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. You have no clue what I know about substance abuse, 12-step programs, etc, based on my comments here. Would a clergy-person uses their position to In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. She can run her blog how she likes. In that case, the hurting people reference is not applicable and its spin off allusions are incorrect and misleading. Velour wrote: This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). wrote: His family had left him and he died of runaway of pneumonia. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. I think God understands this. Bridget wrote: I have to have a blood sugar reading within certain limits in order to be allowed to drive. Ive said so. has sent more people to churches than churches have ever sent to A.A., just sitting in a pew is a big step for some .. the physical act of coming into what in our Judeo-Christian ethic is sanctuary, a place of safety and peace, yeah, there are times in my life when just sitting there was all I could manage. Your reactions make sense. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. No one knows where an alcoholics bottom is and what finally makes that person raise the flag of surrender for help. Best to ignore the barbs. Barbara Roberts wrote: Just think of him as the Mark Driscoll of his particular church/whatever denomination he may be claiming these days. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. @ Velour: I can believe it, Leslie, that Christians couldnt safely share this information in their churches about their families without judgment, put downs, and potential gossip. What a terrible experience to go through so young. However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Velour wrote: Page 14. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. I also prayed for the people who lurk here who struggle with addictions who were reeling from Barbaras words since yesterday. Is this text taught or preached in churches? However, they are very good at confronting self-deception with reality, and that can sometimes be less than pleasant. This is fallacious. 4. They know theyre drunk so they slow way down, and this gives them away. They are quite different. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. 1. Remember Ashley Madison? One of the only reasons I came back to this thread was to add something about your insistence on people getting treatment (treatment outside of a church). I only agree with this to the extent the Church is willing to do the same for any member of their church who should need the same. Velour wrote: Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. But were not there yet. doesnt say it nearly strongly enough. Robert Sproul passed away on December 14, 2017 in Orlando, Florida. RC Jr is a high functioning alkie who is quite adept at sneaking a few tipples through the day and leaving no telltale signs. And that she suffered injuries, too. And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. They got it right. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? . We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. Ones dad ritually abused her as a baby, and another one doesnt even know his dad. Velour wrote: And regardless of your answer, if people in his sphere (church) are aware, but ignoring the issues, then they have something to answer for as well. Its not just the alcohol abuse. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. We asked to leave by the end of the month. Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. Vesta Van Voorhis DeKalb County, Illinois Deaths, 1843-1992 Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019 City & Area Directories U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019 City & Area Directories U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007 Court, Governmental & Criminal Records It is complex. @ refugee: She can correct me if I did. I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. According to his own theology, it does not. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. They display all of the signs.). I have read it several times, actually. @ Max: Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Sproul was converted. It may be all they can do to get help.. When Barbara starts off her comment with Ha Ha and trots out Scripture verses, and never makes mention of treatment for alcoholism and for the family members, than she will get push back from me too. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. The church became a sounding gong and clanging cymbal. But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. It was not about alcoholics in general, and it was certainly not about alcoholics who are in recovery or working toward that. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. I know someone who has been banned from Barbaras blog for using the term codependency, which Barbara doesnt permit. Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. It is one thing for someone like R.C. RC seems to be a bit dodgy here. Hes not going to jail or treatment? Hopefully an intervention can be done on Sproul 2 and his minor children can be removed from his care since he is a danger to them. And I cant thank you enough for the lovely story that you wrote to us yesterday about how your church and clergy loved and cared for that woman church member who was an alcoholic and who wasnt clean and sober. http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. My mother died several years back, causing me great emotional pain, but I didnt turn to alcohol (or other substances) to cope with that pain. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. The county health plan and hospital also has appointments for people who cant afford private care. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Velour wrote: After reading the entire cited paragraph, RC limits his comments to drinking alcohol and sidesteps ABUSE of alcohol by others. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. We went over this last night. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. You have taken this quote out of context . 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. (And its my understanding that that is the exact attitude of RC Jr. and his followers towards alcoholics in their midst, including a couple of young men who came to learn from him at the Highlands Study Center. This assumes that the prior trauma is causing the current opinion, which may or may not be the case, and it assumes that the idea (water) is drawn from a poisoned well (someone with prior trauma) and therefore is tainted not because of what is said but rather because of who said it. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is listed at 347 Bellview Pl Sanford, Fl 32771 and is affiliated with the Republican Party. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Letting him remain in the church passing himself off as a Christian does not help him hit bottom. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation BibleCollege, RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy, RC Sproul Jr. Avoids Prison, Takes Plea Deal for Driving Drunk With Kids, https://relevantmagazine.com/god/rc-sproul-jr-suspended-ministry-after-admitting-visiting-ashley-madison/. Correction of typo (I wish we could edit here! H.A., However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. OK, thats not what I said or believe and since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic? The church. Thats why I gave you push back, because a lot more is at stake than just him and how this is handled. When he was born again by the power of Christ Jesus, he did become a new creature in Him. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. But her children have been wounded and scarred. Occasionally, there is the lone alcoholic who maintains stability but I dont believe that is the norm. R.C. Perhaps if nothing else RC Sproul Sr. shielded and protected his son due his son having his same name and thus the sons actions tarnishing the fathers name. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. Barbara wont even permit the word codependency to be used on her blog. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. How does it help children to have an alcoholic parent put out of a church and not gotten into treatment for alcoholics? Apologies for hitting to soon and posting. The alcoholic never thinks about anyone other then themselves. Ive seen examples of that, too. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. R.C. By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. If Sproul Jr is going to go dry in the culture he built or helped to build in the first place, then hes going to have to have the motivation and gumption to change that entire culture. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. Nonsense. Heres the pattern thats been repeated many times over the years: RC commits some grievous transgression, gets busted, is held accountable, confesses and repents, but then is quickly shown to have simply used a show of confession and repentance as a means to an end. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] We outed ourselves, started. Some might call it being accountable. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. I get that. But a sex hook up account? RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. Churches through the valley recommended us to parents of teens in trouble with drugs and alcohol. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. From that day forward, he chose not to drink. I draw the readers particular attention to Dees phrase: treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. Denise Sproul passes away from leukemia. The ideal situation IMHO is to get him out of ministry entirely and get help for his family so they understand alcoholism. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. We dont know. The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. That prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to "1 year active adult probation.". They will not change who the man fundamentally is. I made a few personal connections with ppl. I can never forget the dead that were dragged in off I-95 into our ER. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. 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