Here are guidelines to help facilitate a meaningful learning experience for everyone. All answers are REVIEWED and MODERATED. When the Gibeonites heard that the other nations were going to attack them, they sent a message to Joshua and the people, Help! lorraine goode. He just let the natural cycles take their course. King David, for example, made huge errors in judgment and committed colossal sins. However there is nothing in the text that indicates he did this. And the king said, "I will give them.". II Samuel 21:14 So they performed all that the king commanded. At most it was about ten miles awaynot very far at all. Numbers 35:34 "Therefore do not defile the land which you inhabit, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.'". Jerusalem is almost directly west a few miles, but it is quite high from the Jordan to the Jerusalem. They engaged in battle, and Israel won, but the people and king Saul said, "Look at all this nice livestock! This does not make any sense. Only when the Gibeonites were under siege from a common enemy and were calling in the marker on their mutual aid treaty did the Israelites turn to God for counsel and advice. Does the Bible encourage the practice of Lent? And after that God heeded the prayer for the land. 4. BATTLE AGAINST ENVY AND JEALOUSY WebThe consequences of Israels covenant with the Gibeonites were not short-term. It would have been the answer. So they answered Joshua and said, "Because your servants were clearly told that the LORD your God commanded His servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you.". With all the recent rebellions, he was probably worried that his alliances were going to fail, because he may have appeared to weaken. What do we do in a time of spiritual famine? If you read Psalm 51 it is very clear that he understood his own makeup. Web2 Samuel 21:2 indicates that King Saul pursued the Gibeonites and sought to kill them off "in his zeal for the children of Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 21:5). After that, God heeded the prayer of the land. But, they like the dark one because he is moody, and doing things not for quite the right reasons. The Gibeonites were a very shrewd bunch of people. Joshua realized he had been deceived, but he kept the letter of his covenant with the Gibeonites to let them live; however, he cursed and enslaved them as woodcutters and water-carriers. Saul later pursued the Gibeonites and sought to kill them off in his zeal for the children of Israel and Judah. It is the time of the beginning of the barley harvest. This is like offering them reparations for what Saul had done, and they replied that it was not good enough. "Now therefore, you are cursed, and none of you shall be freed from being slaveswoodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God." However, this chapter drops a few hints about it. He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation" Psalm 24:4-5. If people grow up in a society and culture that does not have God at their beck and call, they do whatever they wantwhatever comes naturally. If we were reading this quickly, and not really thinking about it, and not understanding God's own character, we might think that this says that God allows the guilt of sin to pass down three or four generations. "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? There is no indication in II Samuel 21 that David got advice from any of his ministers about how to deal with this situation. fit into Creation? Israel and Judah," who may have fretted at the inconvenience of having the Gibeonites among them. The Gibeonites presented themselves to the invading Israelites, not as nearby neighbors, but as distant foreigners who lived in a far-off land. How did the spirit of God move upon the face of the waters in Genesis 1:2? When He visits the iniquity upon successive generations, He is saying is that the results and curses that come automatically often go down a handful of generations. To all appearances, it seems that they got away with it. After that, they had their problems at Ai, and figured out that Achan was responsible for that. Over the years I've urged our Fellowship to check out, investigate and take to heart such biblical alarms. God spared them as a people, but His nation condemned them to endless servitude. And those two are questionable. You are no longer fit to be king." And we bear the guilt with them for that. Eisenhower was still in office. He has mercy, and holds the curses to just a few generations, but He allows the results of doing righteousness to last forever. They haven't been put in Kish's sepulcher yet. The Israelite version was a whole lot less absolute. Davids choice of victims reflects at least the covenant between him and Jonathan, if not also the one between him Think about this for a moment. Who was the father of Mephibosheth? Then we have verses 34 through 36. Exodus 21:23-25 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. There is more space given to David's flaws than anyone else in the whole Bible. There is a great deal more than what meets the eye. The Bible does not provide us the details of this killing. He did not do a thing that a king or judge should do. We have an easier time identifying with the flawed, but heroic, Lancelot from the legends of King Arthur, because he is a lot more like ushe commits sin; he has faults. The Jewish Encyclopedia asserts that one group of rabbis felt that Saul's punishment at God's hands is a sign of his weak moral character whose only virtue was being tall and handsome. And Samuel says, "See? Perhaps the Scriptures are contrasting the faithless actions of Saul and his house in regard to the covenant with the Gibeonites, with the faithful actions of David in regard to the covenant with Jonathan. The Israelites had taken an oath concerning them, but in his zeal for Israel and Judah, Saul had sought to kill them.) It is not the sin of Adam and Eve; it is their own sin. WebSaul slew the Gibeonites, not simply as the son of Kish, but as the king of Israel, and therefore involved all Israel with him in the violation of the national oath; and hence, until the evil should be put away by the execution of the immediate offender or his representatives, all Israel must suffer. But they refused the offer. King David was compelled to hand over his own people to the power of Israel's ongoing enemies. Although he had peace at this time, I think he was worried because they just had two successive rebellions, and were almost to the point of victory over King David until they were eliminated. Later, during a wasting famine, David, attempting a political rather than a righteous solution, yielded to the Gibeonites' request that descendants of Saul be hanged to avenge the slaughter. He just let them walk all over him. However, there was a difference between Israel's version and the Gentiles' principle of vengeance or retribution. During the time of the judges, the Israelites had repeatedly turned away, leaving them corrupt and faithless. He then tells David that he can't marry Michal until he brings Saul 100 Philistine foreskins, thinking that David will definitely die in this attempt. Would it be a good alliance to have with these people from far away?". Nob. And the Gibeonites said to him, "We will have no silver or gold from Saul or from his house, nor shall you kill any man in Israel for us." It was not just Saul, but other members of his family. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. It is very evident from verse 4 that somebody offered money, either from the palace or from the family of Saul. Therefore, one of the first things that Joshua and the Israelites do is they allow a big problem to linger in their midst. And David was told what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done. That is that he could have gone along with the Gibeonite's demands in order to get rid of seven possible contenders for his throne. They had a more bloody and violent systemwhich often led to blood feuds that may not ever end until a whole family or generation was gone. 2 And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the All I do know is that they do hold a solid place in world history and one of their offshoots or branches were the Gibeonites. Perhaps trickery will be better than war for us.". Therefore, there was a different system of justice than what the Gentiles were used to. There is another thing that needs to be thrown out there as a possible scenario, and this would have been the very worst and lowest that David could have sunk to. WebThe Gibeonites Hang Saul's Descendants 21 While David was king, there were three years in a row when the nation of Israel could not grow enough food. They did what is recalled in verses 3 through 6 above. It does not seem so. Probably what happened was that they put them on the top of the hill at Gibeah, so that God in the Tabernacle could "see" the execution being done. I am just going to start with the backdrop to the incident. 2 Samuel 21:2 At this, David summoned the Gibeonites and spoke to them. Certainly, after three years you would. Good question. And they took old sacks on their donkeys, old wineskins torn and mended, old and patched sandals on their feet, and old garments on themselves; and all the bread of their provision was dry and moldy. God is not bloodthirsty, but He had told them what to do. Community answers are sorted based on votes. For a relatively small group the Gibeonites drove a hard bargain and soon it was a done deal. Where have you been, David? ", The Gibeonites, we are told, were not necessarily a warlike people. He did this "in his zeal for. Of course, a part of it is being able to look at ourselves and see how dirty, nasty, and rotten we are, and saying, "There is no way that anybody could live in this world without sin; even God's beloved Son.". He was setting us an example of what we should be doing in a spiritual sense. Numbers 35:29-33 And these things shall be a statute of judgment to you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. If He said that you are out of here, you are out of here. Our God has given us a law that says such and such, so this is what we are willing to do for you.". And David was told what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done. God told Joshua to get rid of all these foreigners in the land. King Saul (and his house?) They probably went from Gibeon by some circuitous route so they did not come directly from the west where they actually lived. See? Her actions made David realize that he had violated another of God's commands by leaving the bodies of Saul, Jonathan, and the seven other sons unburied. After 7-10 years of war, David has solidified his empire Mar 2, 2022. In effect, what they wanted to do was hang the bodies of Saul's family in Saul's hometown in sight of Jerusalem. When did Saul kill these Gibeonites? In 2 Samuel 21:1-14, we see that Saul committed an awful crime, and this caused famine in Israel. Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death [he cannot buy his way out]. Also, they were hanged on the hill before the Lord. You do not know. He was tired of life, tired of war, tired of all the politics, tired of all the rebellion, tired of Joab. Was John the Baptist conceived via an immaculate conception? When this righteous ruler turned to God, the Lord showed him that arrogant error of his predecessor. Evidently, that is what he did. In 2 Samuel 21, we read of the tragic repercussion that followed when King Saul didnt honor the covenant and murdered some Gibeonites. With a careful reading and a bit of thought, you will begin to raise some questions. There are things like destruction for their sin, and the family takes that long to recover from that destruction. They were a group of Amorites. God!before the Lordin Gibeah of Saul. Think of it as if it were today. What might he have done? Web16 And it happened at the end of three days, after they had made a covenant with them, that they heard that they were their neighbors who dwelt near them. No silver or gold from that house. I know that is how I always read itas straight historyand I did not think about it very much. 5. He keeps his word even to his own disadvantage and does not change it [for his own benefit] (Psalm 15:1, 4; AMP). and for his bloody house. Saul, after having disqualified himself from being king, sought to ingratiate himself with God by killing Canaanites, including an unrecorded massacre of Gibeonites. David asked the Gibeonites what punishment would satisfy them and atone for (cover) Sauls sin of murder. The Gibeonites left their mark on Israel's history in another wretched incident involving There are so many things I have got to do.". So he said, "Whatever you say, I will do for you." Rizpah, Lord Alfred Tennyson in 1878. King Saul later broke the treaty that Joshua had signed and attacked the Gibeonites. Later still, during the time of King David, a famine occurred in Israel. When David asked the Lord about the famine, God said, It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death (2 Samuel 21:1). Gave 7 of Saul's sons to the Gibeonites. And if He sinned, then He could not be our Savior. There is no biblical account of this escapade of Saul and his house against Gibeon. It provides the cities of refuge where he could go serve a type of prison sentenceif it was an accidental murderuntil the high priest died. This poor man cried out, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. He will not relent. WebWhen God called Saul to be king, Israel was on the verge of collapse. This is a major reason why the church of God does not subscribe to the traditional doctrine of "The Fall of Man." He became jealous and he went wacko, basically. They were going to come in there and just exterminate. And King David rolled over and let this happen. Webzeal of king Saul - who was a Benjaminite - against the Gibeonites. Why were genealogies so important to Israel? That the famine continued indicates God displeasure with David's decision and inner motives. King David is mentioned by name as a hero of faith. It is not pretty when we allow the people of the land to dictate to us. VERSE 2. You're out of here!". Saul and the heir to the throne, his son, Jonathan, were killed in a battle with the Philistines, and by popular acclamation, David became the King of Israel. PHARAOH AND HAMAN - HERALDS OF HOLOCAUST They buried the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son in the country of Benjamin in Zelah, in the tomb of Kish his father. This would be in the spring during or after the Days of Unleavened Bread. Most people living in modern, Western culture better identify with flawed heroes, rather than perfect heroes. The time had passed. ", Or even after two years. In fact, it can be read as if David approached it as only a minor administrative matter. the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the The higher the vote, the further up an answer is. Now, if they participated in his sin, then of course, they will bear the guilt for their participation in that sin. Notice God declares that the bloodguilt was not just on Saul, but also his house. How many died in sicknesses? When asked about the time of the end; when questioned about the signs that would precede His Second Coming, our blessed Lord instinctively cautioned: "Take heed that no man deceive you." They wanted blood by putting to death seven male descendants to die for the crimes of that house against the Gibeonites. Moreover, the Gibeonites who survived remembered, and they wanted blood when they were asked. And they went to Joshua, to the camp at Gilgal, and said to him and to the men of Israel, "We have come from a far country; now therefore, make a covenant with us. God was not in all his thoughts during this time. He enslaved them all, and made them wood cutters and menial laborers at the Tabernacle. David may have begun to think about this now, "What is going on here? 2 So the king called the Gibeonites and spoke to them. Therefore, the world is full of sintheir own sin. How many died in bar-fights? They made their dust-covered clothes to look worn and ragged as if they had been on the road for many days, even months. Without checking out their story; without surveying the geographical situation; most of all, without consulting the Lord and waiting for His guidance, Joshua went impulsively ahead and signed a binding, lasting agreement with the Gibeonites. Perhaps he thought, "Hmm. God sent the rain, it says specifically, "from heaven," verse 10, "in the latter rains," which is their normal cycle. Perhaps these last few verses suggest that, in burying the bones of Saul and Jonathan, David repented of his sins regarding this whole incident. So they fell, all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest. By this time, having fought all his life since he was a teenagerup against Goliath when he was eighteen or soand here he was approaching 70 years old, and he was tired. Or as the This could indicate that the sons of Saul were actively implicated in this attempted genocide, although we cannot tell for sure as the details of this awful event are not recorded. It takes into consideration things like accidental death, and premeditation. The Gibeonites remained enemies and aliens to the household of God forever after. It wouldnt be surprising if these people had become worshippers of God, from their exposure to the tabernacle and teaching. (Matthew 14:1921). King David was perhaps the only converted person in the entire nationmaybe besides the high priest of the time, but we do not know. 0 responses Where are they from? And it happened at the end of three days, after they had made a covenant with them, that they heard that they were their neighbors who dwelt near them. WebThe LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites. The Bible implicitly hints at something which caused a feud which was settled only by the blood of Sauls descendants. Joshua kept his word to the Gibeonites even when it was inconvenient. Clarify WebWhen Sauls agents came up, she pretended that David was ill and placed a household idol and a net of goats hair in his bed, as if her husband were still lying there (vv. Vote Up I do not know if that was the case, but he had just gone through Absalom's rebellion, and Sheba's rebellion, and maybe he allowed that to cross his mind too. The Gibeonites presented themselves to the invading Israelites, not as nearby neighbors, but as distant foreigners who lived in a far-off land. He asked me, "How does this incident square with what God says in Ezekiel 18:19-20?". He decided to let the Gibeonites dictate everything. He says that He visits the iniquity upon them. The verb is used in this sense with respect to Joshua's action toward the Gibeonites in Joshua 9:27, where cultic servitude is involved ("for the altar of the Lord"). A brief, but important, reference to the Gibeonites can also be found in 2 Samuel 21:1-14. This is a bit unusual. Pagan cultures were killed because they were pagan cultures and they were making war on Gods people. It only says that God heeded the prayer of the land. Evidently, this is what Saul and most of his family was like, except Jonathan. or who shall stand in his holy place? What have you been thinking about?". King Saul exhibited that hubris, that overweening pride in his own decisions and that unfounded confidence in his own good judgment that he brought certain and lasting disaster upon his own dynasty. David did not come to this with any regal neutrality in the least. I will do it." And the Lord said, "There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death. WebWe will attack Gibeon, because they have made peace with Joshua and the Israelites." In reading the Psalms, on the other hand, we get an idea of just how grateful he was for God's forgiveness and grace, because I believe he was aware of just what a rotten individual he really was. Yet, the Bible specifically says in Hebrews 4:15 that He was without sin. It would be the equivalent of an event somewhere between the Korean War and the Vietnam War. We have our own sins to pay for; we do not pay for theirs. We don't hear much of the Gibeonites again until the reign of King Saul. He was far from God during this time. Let's see what's in our bag of tricks. Then there is another thing. They are going to cause problems. If you read 2Samuel 21 carefully, it seems possible that Saul and his house may have been trying to get the Gibeonites territory. Now, turn to the episode of King David, which we introduced. There were big problems, and one of them was the consequences and effects of Saul and his bloodthirsty house. Saul became a bit strange in the head after this, if you will remember. He understood it. And they sent them to Joshua at Gilgal. When God called Saul to be king, Israel was on the verge of collapse. During the time of the judges, the Israelites had repeatedly turned away, lea If the Gibeonites brought guile and deceit into the land; it was Saul who set the example for deep and devastating delusion. ", "She's been doing that for six months? During Davids reign, the people of Gibeon demanded that all of Sauls children be put to death so as to atone for a severe famine. However, that is not the case. He resolved properlynot without a lot of death, with 70,000 dead in that plague, but at least he had the repentant attitude by the time it was over. And that day Joshua made them woodcutters and water carriers for the congregation and for the altar of the LORD, in the place which He would choose, even to this day. However, if they did not participate, they are not going to be given a black mark by God for something that they did not do. Let me ask God about this. THE BATTLES OF THE LORD Vote Up but Saul had sought to kill them in his zeal for the children of Israel and Judah. These conflicting views on Saul would continue long past the biblical era and into modern times. Perhaps those first two, Armoni, and Mephibosheth were old enough to have participated in the event. Joshua 9:22-24 Then Joshua called for them, and he spoke to them, saying, "Why have you deceived us, saying, 'We are very far from you,' when you dwell near us? There is no record in the Bible of Saul killing Gibeonites. And she did not allow the birds of the air to rest on them by day nor the beasts of the field by night. We are getting toward the end of King David's life. So, he spared Agag, and he spared a lot of the good stuff. WebOne of the mothers of the men hanged by the Gibeonites protected the bodies of Saul's sons from birds and wild beasts day and night. King Saul would conscript them into the army, and off they would go in a bloodthirsty rage against somebody else. "There was a famine in the days of King David for three years, year after year. But Joshua had the final decision. But, he did not. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.". And these men, they need to be buried. And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. That would be such a carnal thing to dojust let the Gibeonites kill seven of Saul's kids who could claim the Israelite throne and get them out of the way. Notice the timing and the manner of the execution. The stories of such people like Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, and on through the chapter give us hope that like them we can overcome and be assured of entering the Kingdom of God. He was thinking about a lot of other things. God punished the whole nation for breaking the covenant. Now it came to pass, when Adonizedec king of I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. The historical narrative of King David is drawing to a close. He did not perform any miracle, or any other thing to show that He was happy with the way that things turned out. Let his blood be on us and on our children., Perhaps the Gibeonites are a type of the inclusion of the gentiles Romans 9:22-24. David asked. 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